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Tony, without a doubt. There is absolutely no effort involved in believing that the Tony in the show is the subby Tony in the BDSM universe or any of the other stories. Even in the show, he trails around after Gibbs like a puppy, the leash might not be visible, but it IS there. And you will NEVER convince me he doesn’t love those head slaps!!!
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I honestly think its Rodney because I can’t seriously ever think of him topping… That mind of his is way too overactive and he’s the one who needs to be brought down and made still. And I agree Tony is a natural sub but only with Gibbs.
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The weird thing about Rodney is that I’m with you – I think he’s a born sub. But a LOT of people in that fandom disagree. That always surprised me as it seems very obvious to me. I don’t mind people playing it whichever way they please, but it did surprise me when I get such a very STRONG subby vibe off Rodney that others didn’t see it so clearly too.
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LOL so thats a Sam/Haggy high five!!!
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I, too, think that Tony is the most naturally subby … he’s very eager to please [Gibbs] and he always gives those grins when he finally gets attention
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Its funny…I can’t see Tony subbing effectively to anyone but Gibbs (or, okay, I could see him subbing to Skinner) and yet I think he’s the most natural sub.
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oh yes, TG, you’re totally right! Tony just can’t sub to anyone but Gibbs. At least in canon characters. He’s much too picky as it is for who he lets into his emotional boundaries, so I highly doubt that he would ever be able to submit to someone he has no respect for, and as it stands, I think Gibbs is the only person who’s earned that respect.
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I’m with everyone else – Tony is such a natural sub. And he’s shown in the past, only to Gibbs. He’s held his own with Vance & Shepherd, as well as Franks.
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You all make great points! I can see Tony as a sub to others, but it not working out so well as it does with Gibbs. Gibbs definitely seems to bring Tony’s sub-ness out in him in the best/most natural way.
And while I LOVE sub!Rodney and that’s the way I watched the series, I can see why people might write him as the more toppy in a pairing. He certainly likes to take charge and show off when it comes to science/technology. And in a pairing like Rodney/Radek, I’d pick Rodney to be the more dominant (but I’ve never read that pairing and was only just informed it existed LOL).
When I think of a natural sub, my first thought is of McGee. He always seems so eager to please and seems happiest when there are rules he can work under in all his brilliance. -
KateKintail! Ooohh!! I was totally thinking McGee for this one. I think he would be happy to sub for pretty much anyone as long as he believe he can trust them. Tony would fight anyone other than Gibbs tooth and nail, same with Rodney and Shepherd.
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I was so surprised when most of the SGA fics I encountered had Rodney as being the top/dom, because when I was watching the show, I could only see Rodney in the bottom/sub-role. I didn’t get the vibe of any kind of dominance – true, he likes to show what he’s good at, but still, to me it always felt like he wanted to prove that he was good enough, not establish his dominance.
And I fully agree with Tony as being one of the most natural subs out there, if not the most natural sub. The way he response to Gibbs is brilliant, and it seems to me as though he likes the headslaps. However, I also agree that it’s probably only when it comes to Gibbs that he’s really that subby. Not sure if he’d be that if it was with someone else. -
My initial thought was Tony, but with some more thought I think that that is only with in a Gibbs/Tony relationship. Anyone else has their work cut out for them trying to get him to sub. The same goes for Rodney and even Fox. I’d say Mike (because he is such a puppy, following any/everyone for the least bit of attention), but I’d like everyone to look outside the normal fandoms towards exibit A – Dr Spencer Reid FBI BAU (Criminal Minds). There my friends is the most subbiest sub in need of a collar.
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I usually get a feeling for whether someone is a dom or sub on a TV show and Rodney, for me, is such a through and through sub that it makes no sense that he’d dom. Like I said, i don’t begrudge people enjoying it that way around, but in terms of what Rodney IS, in character and essence, he’s a complete sub. He’s not one who needs to be ordered around though – which is why John works perfectly as his dom as he’s not interested in being that kind of dom. Gibbs, for example, wouldn’t work at all with Rodney! Just as John would be completely wrong for Tony – there’s no way Tony would submit to a dom like John. Tony needs the gruff, no nonsense kind of dom – he’d just view John as more of a friend to hang out with and go drinking with, and John would always know he was only getting Tony’s lip service submission – Gibbs is the only one who’s ever gotten Tony’s REAL submission – ever.
But Rodney does need someone who’ll occasionally get firm to him and stand up to him – and it has to be someone he respects. What I like about John as his dom is that he has the soldier skills Rodney doesn’t possess but also Rodney can respect him because he ALSO has a good math brain and is clearly very smart – Rodney couldn’t respect him if he wasn’t. I don’t think Rodney would make a very good dom – he could play with it in a sex game but I don’t think it’s a role he’d take to naturally. And if he had a good idea for something in his lab, he’d just leave his sub tied off and rush off to go do it, forgetting all about his tied up sub! Rodney is someone who needs to be taken out of himself – and also someone who needs to be shown some very clear love that doesn’t confuse him. -
Mike’s interesting – he’s definitely a puppy – a lost one, looking for an owner. But he’s quite feisty too. He’s the kind of pup who’d screw over any dom not strong enough to keep him, and go looking for one he can really bow his head for. I think once he met Harvey, he knew almost instantly that he’d met the one person who could put a collar and lead on him and bring him to heel.
I’ve never watched Criminal Minds but Reid sounds interesting! I think what I love about all these pairings is that the sub is clearly happier and able to explore his subbiness with the right dom. Once Rodney finds John, his whole world opens up and he finds out he’s a much braver, less self interested individual than he originally thought. He’s even a bit of a hero. Once Tony meets Gibbs, we see him almost instantly, in Baltimore, finding in Gibbs something he’s clearly been searching for his whole life. It’s the same for Mike with Harvey – a sense of the sub instantly finding the dom with whom he can really express that side of himself. They seem to all relax and yet come alive at the same time.
With Fox, you just know Walter is the right dom for him the minute Walter shows up – but Fox isn’t someone who can bend his head easily because he trusts no-one. So it’s more a question of whether Walter can reach him before he completely self-destructs.
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LOL!
I can totally see this happen. -
In my mind, Tony is a natural submissive to Gibbs. I got that from the very first episode I ever watched of NCIS.
For SGA, Rodney was always the natural submissive for me, and I know there’s some who disagree with that, but Rodney is a different submissive than say, Tony. Gibbs is so uber top there’s no way around it. John is an uber top as well but John realizes the power Rodney has over him by being submissive.
Heck, when it comes down to it, unless there are submissives, tops are only people. Because of this, I see the submissive having just as much power as the top. In the John/Rodney relationship, I see this most of all. Not so much in the Gibbs/Tony relationship.
Now what I think about Suits:
Harvey’s the top, Mike’s the submissive. BUT. Jessica is more uber top than Harvey will EVERY be, and she tops HIM. I wrote a fic about it, it sat on my computer for about a month because it just wasn’t clicking for me, but once I started rewatching the episodes it kind of fell into place for me. Jessica out tops EVERYONE, even the tops.
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To sort of start this up again…
Sherlock. The series, not the Consulting Detective.
Okay, in my head I know that Sherlock would make a bad dom. He’d love the control and be beautifully controlling but he’d suck at the after care and really all the actually important parts of being a good dom.
The problem is with the few BDSM-themed fics I’ve found, I just don’t enjoy it when John is the dom, even though logically he’d be much more suited to the role. (Loving, protective, strong, etc.)
I guess I just like the idea of Sherlock being a dom who doesn’t understand exactly what it means until he finds John who without even trying evokes those feelings of caring. I like the idea of John being able to let go of all that sadness, of feeling unwanted and alone.
What do you guys think? -
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Poop. The board ate my reply.
Okay, I knew that you felt the opposite which is kind of why I posed the question. I’ve always agreed with how you’ve seen the dynamic in all of your pairings so it’s odd to me to not feel it this time. I just wanted to see what you saw. Is it that, like Rodney, Sherlock needs to be able to take a break from his big brain (and ego) for a bit and John is the only person he trusts enough to allow that to happen with?
Do you see the same dynamic in other Holmes works or mostly with the BBC AU?
I just want to understand. -
LOL! I don’t think it’s a big deal if people see it differently – sometimes we just want different things from fics/pairings.
For me, this one is a no brainer – sometimes I have to think about it more but instinctively this is what feels right to me with this pairing.
I do see Holmes as the sub pretty much in everything I’ve seen with him in it – the movies for example – Jude Law’s Watson is SO the sensible one bringing RDJ’s insane but genius Holmes down to earth. (I don’t like those movies much though).
With Sherlock, it’s John’s grounding compared to Sherlock’s semi-autism. It’s in Sherlock pacing around between cases wanting to smoke and John being the one who tells him ‘no’ and Sherlock accepting that. It’s John telling Sherlock to accept gifts graciously, and apologise when he’s been rude etc etc. It’s the fact that while Sherlock is undeniably in charge out in the field on a case, it’s John who is more in charge in their domestic/personal lives because he has emotional intelligence and Sherlock is far more cerebral.
I also don’t see what the point is of topping John in a way – I don’t think subbing is about letting go of sadness and being alone although one could write a story that brought out those elements. Sherlock needs a break from the big brain for sure, and John is a very grounded person who can give him time out. Sherlock also needs someone to defer to because John is the ONLY person he does defer to. Sherlock might know a great deal but in the emotional arena he almost knows NOTHING – he requires a guide to normal, human, everyday experiences and emotions and John is that for him.I think one also needs to see Sherlock’s vulnerabilities and John’s strengths as well. Sherlock had a bad time at school and is as alone as John – more so in many ways because nobody LIKES him. Lots of people like John, even if he’s cautious about letting them in. Sherlock’s lack of friendships do bother him – you see he was laughed at at school – in the Blind Banker, he introduces John as his ‘friend’. John, not wanting people to think they’re a gay couple, amends that to ‘colleague’ – and Sherlock’s reaction is quite sad and upset about that – it’s all minute nuances.
I also think Sherlock really needs bringing down. John doesn’t – he’s already very grounded. What would subbing do for him? He doesn’t need escape, or to fly, or to be brought down, or to stop from self destructing. He doesn’t look to me like someone who would enjoy pain, or bondage, or power play, or giving up control in order to get release. If we just want to take care of him then I don’t think it needs a BDSM relationship for that – it’d work better in a normal slash relationship. I don’t see him as someone who does need taking care of though – I think his thing is that he wants to take care of others – he’s a doctor after all, and part of what he does for Sherlock is care taking – making sure there’s food in the fridge, looking out for him, worrying about him, killing people who are a threat to him – etc etc.
Of course, this is all pie in the sky in many ways – a person can be entirely different sexually to how they come over in their real life! LOL! So I don’t think it’s something we should get unduly hung up on. I just think Sherlock comes into that category where fandom mistakes his bossiness and cleverness for dom-like qualities whereas in many ways I think they’re the antithesis. it’s surface domliness – about being smart, apparently self assured and ordering people around. Rodney suffered a lot from that too and he was utterly a sub in my view – although John Sheppard was less of an obvious dom to my mind. Gibbs and Tony are easily the least confusing dom/sub couple out there! LOL! Gibbs IS bossy in the field and has rank and age on his side, but he’s also very grounded. He also likes to take his toppiness everywhere – not just in the workplace – it’s in every aspect of his life. And of course we see Tony loving that and responding to it in a very submissive manner – but only with Gibbs. Tony’s subbiness is very specific to one person whereas Gibbs’s toppiness is all pervading
. But Sherlock is naughty – he pisses people off, sometimes deliberately, to the point where he gets sent to prison briefly for it despite John telling him NOT TO DO IT. John gets to comment on and correct Sherlock’s behaviour – Sherlock never does that with John. John is there to reel Sherlock in and try to stop him from his own worst impulses. He humanises Sherlock. Even without the BDSM, that’s a point that was brought out by the show’s writers very early on. That Sherlock without John has the potential to go bad – he acts out of hubris and he acts out of his belief in his own mental capacity without thinking about any emotional consequences. That’s what John is there for – to temper that. In that way I don’t see them as much different from Walter and Fox – Fox is brilliant but wayward – Walter is stabilising. I think people are maybe confused by the fact that John is the junior partner, ostensibly, in their working relationship. I also think some folks just love Sherlock and want to imagine him being the stern fantasy dom of their dreams. Nothing wrong with any of that – if that’s how people want it. It really doesn’t work for me that way but all of this is fantasy anyway.
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Meant to say also, that if you just prefer reading dom!Sherlock and sub!John then I don’t see it’s an issue – this is all make believe in our heads! LOL! I never want to read it that way around because it feels wrong to me, but other people might not want to read it my way around because it feels wrong to them. It’s all just what we like/fancy/enjoy most. I don’t know there’s a right or wrong to it – I can only say how it is for me
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